Photo by Guy Furrow
You’ve chosen to do David Lynch’s Festival of Disruption having played just a few shows this year. What was the clincher, the hook that drew you in for both of you to provide a talk and for you, Chris, to exhibit your photographs?
Chris Stein: I was thinking about why I admire David, and it’s that he never really sold out. He’s always true to himself and his vision of weirdness. Sure, he did a couple of commercials in Japan, but he’s always been an outsider. We have tremendous admiration for David, and I just appreciate his aesthetic, which has to do with abstraction, which is different than what we’re used to in the world of commercial media and films. It’s inspirational, and I’m really looking forward to the TV show if he ever gets it off the ground.
Debbie Harry: He frees me up. He doesn’t keep everyone frozen in a predictable plot line. He gives a lot of opportunities for thought and lets your mind go off, and that’s sort of like a jazz experience where you get to ad lib a little bit. He leaves doors and windows open, and you can’t help but go and figure out what it could be and what the meaning is. He leaves things hanging, and he leaves questions behind, and it’s always very intriguing. It’s like the best kind of scenario. Our connection to David is part of our connected spirit, in a way. I guess we are all influenced by each other. I think we are all very fascinated from the very beginning with Lynch.
Stein: I was plugged into Eraserhead. He’s great. He’s really maintained himself.
Harry: How many times did we go to that midnight show of Eraserhead, Chris?
Stein: All the time. Every now and then I re-watch all his films.
And his work is so often praised for blending that absolute mundanity and absurdity inherent in reality. Do you see life at those extremes?
Harry: That’s totally accurate, and that’s really what life is like because you’re always taken by surprise.
Stein: I’ve been seeing people using the phrase “Zombie Urbanism.” It’s about how surprises are taken out of the big cities now. When things were more so-called “dangerous” here in New York, things would surprise you on the streets, but now everything has just become fucking Walt Disney. That’s now going away a little.
Harry: It’s gone away a lot.
Stein: Well, I’m just being generous.
I do feel that our insane devotion to connectivity is certainly something that can squash surprises. I’m unsure if people who are entering into the entertainment industry now are able to have any mystery anymore?
Harry: And it all just seems predetermined, anyway. We’ve gone from A to Z towards the end of the alphabet, as far as our appreciation of our lives entwined with technology goes. Instead, everyone should go back to A, and this is going to sound kind of hippie-ish, but everyone’s first thought when you wake up should be the Earth, because the Earth really needs our help. All of the special qualities that we have as beings come from our magnetic relationship to the Earth. Technology is a terrific part of that, but the primary thought should be with preservation of the place that has given us life.
Stein: I think that connectedness is replacing learning to a degree, and that’s kind of fucked. I can’t believe how stupid people are. Did you see Hillary Clinton on Between Two Ferns with Zach Galifianakis? It’s fucking great, but people think it’s a real thing, writing that she’s going to have him killed for being so rude! It’s crazy. I’d like to think that the IQ of the masses is greater than the individuals, but sometimes it’s questionable. I like the idea of the hive mind, and I think we’re getting there with technology, but it’s not really there yet.
Harry: But that’s what I’m talking about. They don’t have a focus; they don’t have a proper focus. It’s not technology. Focus is a basic human instinct for survival, and that’s being overlooked. People are so involved with the trivial and mechanical aspects of what this technology is that they are foregoing and forgetting about where it originates from. In order to go forward, you have to go backwards first.
And what we were saying earlier regarding the duality David likes to explore — your music sometimes sits at that intersection of disco and punk where you manage to balance that prettiness and darkness the same way David does. How do you find a way to make those two seemingly opposite things somehow exist together?
Stein: Every light is dark. That’s part of existence. People may deny it, but it’s always there.
Harry: Life is strictly horrible for most people. There’s so many horrible things that happen to us. The idea that we’re supposed to have a perfectly happy life is absurd beyond belief. We all know that, but everyday we’re bombarded.
Stein: I don’t know if you’ve seen Louis C.K.’s great riff about that. He embraces being miserable frequently. His sadness is something he thinks is a benefit. I don’t know if that’s just a line, but in theory it sounds good.
You both will be giving a talk at the festival that will relate to the concepts of “disruption” and “transcendence” in art and music, and also a discussion of the NYC scene and Chris’ photos of Blondie’s formative years. What do you mean by disruption in terms of art and music?
Stein: Well, David has a foundation in the surrealist and Dada movements, and those guys did their best to disrupt. The punk and hip-hop scenes were very disruptive to the status quo of the music business. There were a few people who embraced those movements, [but] it was still a big hurdle, the whole do-it-yourself thing. These elements were so anti what had been established and what all the hit records in the music business had been up to that point.
Harry: And how technology gives everyone the illusion that they’re actually communicating. It’s a false positive. We all have different kinds of courage, I think. Different talents and stamina to overcome stress, and a lot of that determines just how much punishment one can take! [Laughs.]
Punishment is the most perfect superlative. Chris, you use photography as a methodology to capture a moment, which is one way of disrupting time because time flows and photography captures a single part of it.
Stein: The time-travel element of photography is important to me. Of course, it’s harder now, but a lot of the street photography I did in the early ‘70s was because I was drawn to the decay and broken things in the city on a daily basis. I just wonder about time-travel elements in modern photography. With everybody recording everything constantly, will [it] have the same effect on people in another 20 to 30 years?
Harry: Well, it’s very funny because when we first started the technology for instant replay and recording wasn’t there, so I often felt in a performance, “Well, that’s a good thing, but it’s gone!” I once worked with a director, a funny, odd little theater person, and she refused to record any of her plays. That’s a very disruptive attitude about your work. It’s like Picasso drawing in the sand and then the waves coming in and washing away his work. This is something he actually did, so there is some kind of value to that, I think.
Exclusive Photo Provided by Chris Stein: “Novelty Shop Times Square 1973”
Do you find that art is a form of meditation for you?
Stein: To a certain extent. It’s also something that’s really natural to me. You know William Gibson? He describes this system when everyone has cameras implanted in their heads and photographing what they see. I would be all for it because I am always seeing images that I wish I would be able to capture.
Didn’t he mention how time moves in one direction and memories and our minds move in another?
Stein: Yeah, how we perceive time is certainly limited and probably doesn’t have anything to do with the actual movement of the universe. But this chat is so good because it gave us some direction for our talk, because I didn’t have an agenda for the festival yet!
Speaking of time, are you working on any new projects?
Stein: Oh, we have a new record coming out! Debbie, did you hear those mixes?
Harry: Yeah, I did!
Stein: We’ve written a lot of stuff for it and collected a lot of songs from other people, so we have a lot of material that’s been donated.
Have you recorded them already, or are you still in the process?
Stein: Oh, it’s pretty much all done at this point.
Do you have a release date yet?
Stein: Maybe end of the year, early next year.
Is there one throughline narrative to the album, or are there multiple themes that you’ve tackled over the years?
Harry: What happens for me and the songs is that the lyrics are always about relationships for the most part, and then there’s this musical aspect, the component of emotion that exists in the music exclusively without any lyrics. When those two things are combined, whatever happens to the listener is truly individual. That’s probably why everyone is so in tune with music. You can’t help it; it’s just something that you can’t help.
Do you feel like you pushed production in terms of using new technology?
Stein: The last two records before this were a little more electronic and computer-based, but this one is more organic and very much band-based, a little more old-school.
Tell me about the collaborators that you worked with?
Stein: As soon as we started asking around for songs, people started giving us stuff. We have a song by Johnny Marr, a song by Dev Hynes, a song by Sia and Nick [Valensi] from The Strokes. And also from … you know who The Gregory Brothers are? They’re YouTube stars, the guys that Auto-Tune the news and the “Double Rainbow” song. They’re great musicians.
And incredibly distinctive voices in there. Do they perform on the tracks?
Stein: We have The Gregory Brothers on a couple of tracks and Joan Jett on another track.
Wow! I’m so excited! I’m sorry, I’m gushing. Will you tour on the back of it?
One last question: I was wondering, considering the state of the world — it’s muddy, dark, and chaotic at most times — what do you feel is the most encouraging sign for the future?
Stein: I see substantial resistance to all the bad shit that’s going on, you know? I mean, I wish fucking Elizabeth Warren had run in some capacity, but I don’t know if she had enough behind her. People are standing up, you know? I certainly appreciate and identify with Black Lives Matter in spite of their detractors. I think there needs to be more resistance to the status quo.
Harry: I don’t know if there is an overall positive sign. I think everybody is sort of muddling through. I don’t really have a lot of first-hand connections with kids, but I think in their vocabulary, kids have a more automatic way of thinking about the environment, and I think that if we don’t have that, we don’t have anything. I can’t say it enough or often enough, really, that the first thought in anybody’s mind when they wake up in the morning should be, “OK, what am I going to do today to save the Earth?”